Don Massie

My feedback

  1. 3 votes
    Sign in
    (thinking…)
    Sign in with: Facebook Google
    Signed in as (Sign out)

    We’ll send you updates on this idea

    8 comments  ·  Acrobat for Windows and Mac » Accessibility  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →
    Don Massie commented  · 

    Hi Rachit,
    I don't know what additional data might be required.
    To replicate, take any untagged PDF. Autotag it and then turn on the Reading Order (both in the Accessibility Tool). Then set the Reading Order tool to "Structure types." You'll see that items that are autotagged as H2, etc. in the Tags panel are being shown as Paragraph "P" tags via the Reading Order tool.
    I've uploaded a screenshot, but this happens with almost any document. I just replicated it via a Word doc saved improperly (not set to tag), a generic downloaded Journal article PDF, and a scanned document. If you need an actual document, just let me know but it might be more useful to see how pervasive the problem is if you try it with any documents you might have handy.
    Thanks,
    Don

    Don Massie commented  · 

    Thanks for the reply.
    Unfortunately, the problem is still occurring. I confirmed I have the most recent update and repeated it on the first try doing the following:
    1) Open an untagged PDF
    2) Using the Accessibility Tool, Autotag it
    3) Turn on the Reading Order tool, set it to "Structure types" and try to visualize the headings in the document...Acrobat mis-represents them as paragraph text, although they show as actual headings in the tags panel/tagging structure. (See attachment if it comes through)
    One can also run an accessibility check, then click on the heading failures...Acrobat typically guesses and makes the title an H3 or H4 (instead of an H1), but the reading order shows the content tagged as a P. If one manually selects that content and changes it to a heading level, the reading order tool DOES show the appropriate tag.
    Regarding previous replies about the content panel: I see that it's presented as a Paragraph "Container Tag" in the Content Panel and below that it indicates the "Structure Tag" is a Heading Level 3...it would just be helpful if the Reading Order tool actually showed how the content is tagged when someone clicks the Structure types radio button. Autotagging creates tags, it just doesn't properly display the heading tags in the Reading Order tool.
    This is a problem for people trying to remediate documents...they may waste a lot of time changing tags for content that may already be properly tagged. It's also confusing to see P for something that is really tagged as a heading.
    Thanks for any progress you've made, and hopefully this will work as expected soon.

    Don Massie commented  · 

    Hi Lovekesh,
    I see what you're talking about, but unfortunately this is a problem for people trying to support accessibility. It seems like a bug.
    From what I'm reading, this essentially means there's no good way to see the tag structure using the display generated for “Structure types” with the TURO tool when a document is saved as a tagged pdf, if using the autotag function in Acrobat, etc.
    When set to show "Structure types" in TURO, a heading tag will show as "P" even though it may be an H1, H2, etc. as seen in the Tags tab (and the Content tab shows Container <P>) - this necessitates using TURO to re-tag EVERY SINGLE item that should already be tagged as a heading in order to update the Container. If not using TURO, one would have to go into the Content tab and manually change each Container <P> to a specific heading level by right clicking, choosing properties, and then making the container tag match the structure tag. If you do either of these, the “Structure types” display THEN shows a H2 instead of P, but this seems like a needless amount of effort (a LOT of effort) when that behavior is what one would expect when saving as a tagged PDF in the first place. However, if the TURO display matched the tags tab (and the tags updated the content containers upon saving as a tagged PDF, autotagging, etc.) you would easily be able to see the content structure without looking tag by tag in the tags tab/panel.
    So, if I'm understanding correctly, the TURO 'structure' display is showing the underlying Content tab structure, but not the structure of the Tags tab. Does this mean that even though the tags are carried over when a document is saved properly, the underlying Content structure doesn't respect the tag structure? Does saving as a tagged PDF have no meaning? Am I missing something here?

    Don Massie commented  · 

    Okay, I've uploaded some very generic testing documents just to show what's happening (Word doc and the PDF output). Here's the link: https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/055c571a-4753-4f37-af26-0ba482acd517
    I"m using Acrobat Pro DC Ver 2018.009.20050 and Word from an Office 2016 subscription. Note however, that I also tested this with an old version of Acrobat XI and the TURO tool behaves the same.
    It really would be helpful if, either now if it can be fixed or in a future release, TURO showed the proper structure when the "Structure types" radio button is activated - that's exactly what one would expect when choosing that option.
    Thanks for any help you can provide.

    Don Massie commented  · 

    @ Vivek:
    Sure, I just need a place to share it - I don't see any way to attach a file here. Can you shoot me some info about how/where I can share it (email address, link to upload, etc.)?
    That said - it occurs with all content when saving a Word document as a PDF (when using the "Document structure tags for accessibility" check box selected, as one should). Activating TURO shows various heading level items as P when they are really headings (as can be seen in the tags pane) and what I'd expect to see as TH and TD in tables appears as P everywhere as well (in the tags panel I see a properly nested structure as expected). This will cause people who may be inexperienced with accessibility remediation to waste time tagging items that are already tagged.

    Don Massie shared this idea  · 
  2. 30 votes
    Sign in
    (thinking…)
    Sign in with: Facebook Google
    Signed in as (Sign out)

    We’ll send you updates on this idea

    14 comments  ·  Acrobat for Windows and Mac » Accessibility  ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    Hi Joel,
    We are always working to make it a better of experience for our accessibility customers.
    We’ll be adding the support of Undo/Redo in order panels and Reading Order Tool in our coming releases.
    Can you please tell me why you need the Tags Panel and Reading Order to be merged.

    Thanks
    Rachit.

    Don Massie commented  · 

    I'm not the original post author, but I'm jumping in here....I've noticed that the Undo/Redo function actually does not work if one remediates tags via the Touch Up Reading Order tool, that functionality is only available if one manually changes items in the tags panel. Why is that?
    Changing it with either approach will change the structure in both the tags and content tab/panels. I'd expect undo/redo to work the same in both instances, why does this not work when changes are made via the TURO tool?

    Don Massie supported this idea  · 
Become an Acrobat Insider

Help shape the future of Acrobat.

Join the Adobe Document Cloud and Acrobat beta to get early access, try our “yet to be released” features and give us feedback. Let us know if you are interested by filling up this short form.


Feedback and Knowledge Base